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Lacy Hunt: Expect lower interest rates

AUSTIN, Texas -- Economist Lacy Hunt takes a measured view of things. That's what economists do, of course, except for the ones on television. But my regular pilgrimage to the offices of Hoisington Investment Management is a mission in grounding -- Hunt will have assembled one of the best economic chart books in the business.

We're talking about a good deal more than pretty pictures here.

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Over the last 15 and 20 years the fixed-income institutional portfolios managed by Van Hoisington, Hunt and other team members have beaten the Lehman Aggregate Bond index by about 2 percentage points a year.

That's a long time to be making good calls.

It's also a margin of superiority that few can claim. Skeptics should consider the institutional shares of the fabled PIMCO Total Return fund, run by the equally fabled Bill Gross. Its annualized return over the last 15 years is only 88 basis points ahead of the Lehman Aggregate Bond index.

Listening here is good.

"The yield curve is inverted," Hunt says. Noting that short-term rates are higher than the yield on a 10-year Treasury, he points out that recessions nearly always follow. Add the decline in the leading economic indicators index and that makes it virtually certain we'll have a slowdown next year. Maybe a recession.

No, he isn't ready to declare that recession is inevitable. Oil prices have declined enough that we just might luck through. But the odds aren't good.

Another big factor is the decline in the growth of money. "We've had two years of contraction. The Fed has brought monetary growth down rather significantly," he says.

His biggest concern: housing. "It's only 6 percent of GDP," he points out. "But it has a disproportionate impact on employment and an enormously disproportionate impact on consumer spending."

It has been so in every economic cycle, Hunt explains, but it is more so this time because of the amount of money people have been borrowing out of their houses to support their spending. With both housing starts and housing prices turning down, we'll get a double whammy. The borrowing will end and, with it, so will the spending. Cash-out refinancing never amounted to more than $50 billion in a year before 2000, his charts show, but is running at more than $75 billion a quarter so far this year.

It will turn down.

Lots of people who were pouring concrete and nailing up Sheetrock last year will be looking for work. Since January 2002, Hunt points out, 1.3 million of the 5 million jobs created were related to housing. That's 26 percent of the total.

Needless to say, Hunt isn't alone in worrying about the home price bubble. To cite an extreme, economist Gary Schilling has gone on record expecting a 25 percent decline in housing prices. This would literally bankrupt millions of homeowners.

You'll be glad to know that Lacy Hunt isn't expecting anything that extreme.

What's worrisome is that other sources of economic strength don't look very promising to Hunt, either.

How about foreign consumer demand?

Not likely, he says.

How about business investment and capital spending?

Hunt, always the proper economist, doesn't say "fuhgeddaboutit" -- but he might as well have. "With GDP slowing, it's very hard to believe capital spending will continue."

The bigger picture -- the one beyond this economic cycle -- is more positive. Hunt believes we have entered a new period of global markets and productivity. Like the long period from 1871 to 1930 -- with major increases in agricultural, manufacturing and transportation productivity -- we may be in a long period of low to nonexistent inflation. Back then prices actually fell slightly every year. They averaged a 0.2 percent decline annually. Treasury yields averaged only 2.9 percent.

So interest rates may fall further still.

Could something happen to throw a monkey wrench into this picture of benign deflation?

"Yes," Hunt says. "We have to worry about the law of unintended consequences. If the new Congress raises the tax rates on investment income, it would put us in a bad position. We can't compete internationally on labor costs. So we've got to have strong capital investment. Raising the taxes on capital would take away our edge."

ON THE WEB Archive of Hoisington Management Quarterly Reviews   

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Personal finance writer Scott Burns is syndicated by Universal Press. His twice weekly column appears in newspapers from Boston to Seattle. He is the Chief Investment Strategist for AssetBuilder, Inc. Readers can register at www.scottburns.com. Questions/comments can be posted directly. They can also be sent, without registration, to scott@scottburns.com. Questions of general interest will be answered in future columns and on this blog.

Click on the "Archive" navigation to see other columns. All comments are welcomed and appreciated.

Comments

 

ABModerator03 said:

The yield curve has been inverted 11 months or so , as I recall , but the real factor is the housing collapse . It's true that we have a multiyear high in unsold homes , but have you considered how much the supply might grow when foreclosures are put back onto the market ?

I don't think you have a clue , but if you can get your hands on SFO magazine ; please read the November article by Lon Witter or the December article by Matt Blackman .

The National Assoc. of Homebuilders HMI index has fallen 58% recently . If the S&P only falls half as much , then we are looking at 900 next September. GM and Ford account for 50,000 high pay jobs lost , but we are looking at an additional 4 to 5 hundred thousand jobs in the construction biz .

2005

43% of first time buyers put no money down

32.6% were interest only mortgages

10% of home owners have no equity

15.2% are currently at least 10% " underwater "

$2.7 Trillion in ARMS will be adjusted upward

These are wonderful articles because I make money on Bear markets , and they point to a doozy headed our way . " This time is different " : never trust that ! " No economist has ever predicted a recession " , well , you can trust that .

People can't see this coming ? Retail spending is linked ; you said that much , but retail and housing are 70% of the economy , and people can't see this coming !

In terms of a WW II submarine , this boat is riding the vents and awaiting the crash dive signal

  

From Scott Burns:

I hope, in your next life, that you learn to be a mature and civil human being.  

All the information you cite is readily available. Has been for months ages. Only a hermit could have avoided the covers of every major glossy personal finance magazine as the home flipping craze peaked. Or the same covers as people began to worry about all the factors you mention.   If you take the time to read my columns you won't find a single one recommending small down payments, cash out re-financings, interest only mortgages, etc.
November 27, 2006 10:24 AM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Dear Mr. Burns,

All of our long term investments are in LAND. This is one of the fastest growing areas in the US, with one of the highest income per capita.

So far I have been able to arrange land sales as an exchange of like kind property under IRS Code section 1231. Of course the difference in price reduces the tax basis of the new property.

Land is almost always taxed as agriculture so the taxes are low.

But my primary interest right now is in interest rates. We have virtually all of our IRA cash in Vanguard's Admiral and Vanguard's MMF Retail. The remainder of our cash we were rolling over 90 day treasury bills using Treasury Direct. Then we discovered www.hsbcdirect.com where we can get about 5.05% interest which is easier than rolling over short-term treasury bills. So we are moving more in that direction with our remaining cash.

My question is this, what effect will the war have on short-term interest rates? We really appreciate your recent column in the Tennessean "Economist expects lower interest rates" So, please keep writing. We appreciate it.

Chuck

  

From Scott Burns:

My personal view is that we have seen the end of very low short term rates and that it will be difficult to lower them substantially. That doesn't mean that they won't ever go down, I just don't think we'll see those 1 and 2 percent rates again. Richard Fisher at the Dallas Fed has essentially admitted that rates were too low earlier and that we will pay a price for it as speculation is brought under control. That's why we all need to watch the housing markets very carefully in the next year.
November 27, 2006 10:26 AM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Scott I agree that a recession is probably in the near future, but I am unsure of how that would affect a retirement account. In your opinion, would it change your allocation of stocks, bonds, cash, REITs etc. I realize no one has a crystal ball, but I firmly believe that people should at least give it some thought. Thanks , Al

  

From Scott Burns:

I've never been much of a fan of market timing. The best recent example is that at this time last year many advisers were calling for the sale of REITs because they were overvalued. Today they are still more overvalued.

This is a good reason to have a fixed allocation to asset classes. The rise in domestic equities, foreign equities, and REITs, along with the poor returns of most fixed income investments would cause a fixed allocation investor to rebalance. This means selling some domestic and foreign equities and some REITs in favor of fixed income investments such as money market funds, TIPS, GNMA funds, and foreign bond funds. That's what I'll be doing between now and year-end.
November 27, 2006 10:27 AM
 

ABModerator03 said:

I completely agree with Mr. Hunt on his economic analysis.

He seems to understand the big picture in the economy like none of the ignorant pundits that get so much airplay these days. He understands the link between personal finance and financial corporate profits, the connection between personal net worth and income and economic risk and the dependency of capital spending on the behavior of the consumer (and vice versa). He does not see these things as being independent but correlated in a complex manner.

The one thing that I disagree with him is his statement on capital gains and unearned income. I know from the perspective of economics, his viewpoint makes sense. But from a political standpoint, it will not work. I don't see that people are going to support a tax policy where workers (who are already threatened with negative real wage growth) are going to pay the higher load of taxes while their employer and the idle wealthy gets a tax break.

Not everything is economics so you will never get the optimal solution. Accept it.

Larry

  

From Scott Burns:

We'll have to wait and see if you are right about that. It's interesting that there has been no great stampede by democrats to rescind the Bush tax cuts. It may yet come but early comments from Charles Rangel indicate no rush. So while feelings run hot, it is quite possible that democrats will reluctantly admit that raising taxes on investment would be applying a knife to the public nose.
November 27, 2006 10:34 AM
 

ABModerator03 said:

From your recent column:

"Raising the taxes on capital would take away our edge."

When are the taxes assessed? When I sell a stock, I'm not taxed until I file. Are foreigners, or transactions of a certain size taxed when transacted?

I'm obviously missing something here.

  

From Scott Burns:

Returns on capital are taxed through the corporate income tax, the tax on corporate dividends in personal returns, and the capital gains tax on realized gains. The lower the taxes on capital, the more will be available. A ready supply of investment capital will fuel the innovation and productivity that will allow us to maintain an edge over competitors with lower labor costs.
November 27, 2006 11:56 AM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Hi Scott:

Your expert puts housing at only 6% of GDP. But that measure is faulty. Use the one at the Harvard Joint Centre on Housing. According to them, it's 23% of GDP. Does that change your expert's call on the recession?

Cheers, John

  

From Scott Burns:

This is an apples and oranges problem. Lacy Hunt is talking about fixed residential investment as a percent of GDP. I don't know exactly what's in the Harvard Joint Centre on Housing measure but it's probably a much wider measure that would include the broad inputs for shelter including energy. The more sensitive of the two is the fixed residential investment because it's what can be cut back when there is a lack of demand or an oversupply of inventory.

Paul Kasrial, the economist at Northern Trust in Chicago has a very similar view to Hunts and both look at multiple factors: actual housing construction, consumer purchasing from mortgage refinancing, the impact of rising interest rates of interest only and other variable rate mortgages, etc. etc. However you slice it, we've had excesses in the housing sector that rival anything done during the Internet Bubble.

The difference, and it is an important one, is that housing provides all of us with something we need every day--- shelter. Internet and telcom stocks either produced revenues and profits or did not. If they did not, they had nothing to fall back on. Houses can be cheap or dear, but they are always a place to sleep.
November 27, 2006 12:05 PM
 

ABModerator03 said:

[...] Lacy Hunt: Expect Lower Interest Rates [...]
December 4, 2006 8:43 AM
 

ABModerator03 said:

I saw your recent article about a recession in the future. However, neither you, or anyone else I have read is comparing our economic situation to post Vietnam. I am no economist, but Iraq has just passed VN in dollar cost (not inflation adjusted). The US gov is running huge deficits, To qutoe Zhou WanFeng "The greenback has been under heavy pressure lately, slumping to multi-month lows versus the euro and yen and 14-year nadir against the British pound, on growing worries that the interest-rate differential between the U.S. and Europe would narrow soon. The dollar has declined about 4% versus the euro and 2% versus the yen since mid-November. "

Gold has almost tripled recently. I just got a one year CD for the same rate that I got on my fixed mortgage re-fi (which supplied the money to buy the CD), and I anticipate that I will get more than my mortgage rate in years to come.

How else is the US going to finance several more years in Iraq without fiat money inflation? Somebody has to pay the piper eventually, and, as usual, it will be those who get trapped by inflation.

So, please, if you can, give me a reason not to see inflation ahead. I would love to find a better scenario.

John

From Scott Burns:

You've got a better memory and sense of history than most. I think you are right to worry about inflation. Inflation, however, is NOT mutually exclusive with recession.

The decline of the dollar may bring some reduction in our trade deficit but the rising cost of foreign goods will also act as a price umbrella for domestic manufacturers who will be able to raise their prices. So it will bring more price inflation even as we deal with excess borrowing, disappearing real estate equity, etc.

My personal crystal ball does see inflation ahead. Ironically, the cost of Iraq is minor compared to the real cause which is the rising cost of Medicare and Social Security. Those unfunded liabilities are growing much faster than our official government deficit. You can learn more about this is "The Coming Generational Storm" (MIT Press, 2004) the book I coauthored with economist Laurence J. Kotlikoff.
December 9, 2006 11:29 PM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Dear Scott,

Is now a good time to buy I bonds or should I wait until after the rates are reset in May?

In general, is this simply a question of one's expectations about inflation and interest rates?

If one buys them for someone else, does a gift tax apply and when does it apply?

The last time I bought them was in October 2001.

Thank you. I love the site and enjoyed The Coming Generational Storm.

Regards,

Lou
April 3, 2007 4:20 PM

About scottb

Scott Burns has covered the changing world of personal finance and investments for nearly 40 years. Today, he ranks as one of the five most widely read personal finance writers in the country. Scott began his career as a newspaper columnist at the Boston Herald in 1977 where he was also the financial editor. Nationally syndicated in 1981 and now distributed by Universal Press, the column appears in newspapers from Boston to Seattle. In 1985 he joined the staff of the Dallas Morning News where his column quickly became one of the most widely read features in the paper. He left the Dallas Morning News in 2006 to become one of the founders of AssetBuilder and its Chief Investment Strategist. Burns is a graduate of Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1962). He has written four books, including "The Coming Generational Storm" (MIT Press, 2004) coauthored with economist Laurence J. Kotlikoff. His fourth book, also coauthored with Kotlikoff, will be published this spring by Simon & Schuster. "Spend Til' the End" uses consumption smoothing to demonstrate the errors of conventional financial planning. His business experience includes working as a staffer for a major consulting company and service as a director and audit chairman of a NASDAQ listed manufacturing company. He and his wife divide their time between Dallas and Santa Fe, New Mexico.
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