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Retirees: Have a "Good Times" Fund

Q. My husband and I have saved for 18 years. We now have a substantial retirement. He has been the primary earner; I have worked on and off part time. I have recently been ill with a potentially fatal disease and recovered, only to sustain a broken arm and nerve damage that rendered my dominant hand useless for about seven months. I am waiting for a settlement on that. He had a pre-stroke event last year.

So here is the dilemma: His habit is to save as much as possible, and I have gladly supported that fiscal behavior. But now I feel we need to spend money on ourselves and travel while we still can. He just can't agree with me, saying we need it for our retirement. I'm talking a few thousand for a Europe trip, or buying/renting a motor home and seeing the USA.

It's to the point that I'm threatening to go alone, or to ask for my half of our savings to manage myself. No more saying "someday we'll...." ---someday is now! Other than that, we are usually on the same page for most life issues. ---C. O., by email from Texas

A. Many people are constitutionally incapable of cutting themselves some slack or, for that matter, having a good time. It's not that they don't intend to never have a good time; it's just that it will be sometime in the future. It's never today, this week, or this year.

The best mechanism for dealing with this is to separate some amount of money from your regular retirement funds. Earmark that money as your "good-time fund." Agree that you will spend it on having a good time.

The hard part is getting on the same page about the amount of money you can earmark for this. It's a long heart-to-heart.

So here's a suggestion. Suppose you are 65. Suppose also that you decide that you will take 10 percent of your retirement assets and spend them over the next 10 years. If those assets earn 5 percent, that means each $10,000 you put aside will give you a good-time allowance of $1,273 a year. If you have, say, $500,000 in investment assets and earmark 10 percent to the good-time fund, you'll have a $50,000 fund that will generate $6,365 a year.

Your spouse may ask, "But what about the future?"

Your answer is simple: "We're taking care of the next ten years first. If we're poor in 10 years, we won't do it again. If we've still got plenty of money in 10 years, we'll create another good-times fund."

The basic task here is to find the amount of money your spouse thinks is necessary to keep invested and the amount that he can let go of. It's a matter of finding his comfort zone. Ask the questions smoothly and you'll be able to find some amount that works for him. The same exercise will be instructive for you--- find out how much money you could put into a good-times fund without feeling foolish or endangered. It's probably way more than your husband. But the "spread" may not be as big as you think.

Q. We own a house worth about $100,000. There is no mortgage on the house. We have been thinking about buying a new house in the $150,000 to $165,000 price range. We have $70,000 in the bank. Between us, my wife and I make $65,000 a year. We are debt-free. Should we put the proceeds from the sale of the first house on the balance owed on the second house and pay off the second house in two to three years? ---E.W., by email

A. Probably not. What you do depends your other income tax deductions. If you netted $90,000 from your current house, you would need to have $60,000 to $75,000 in mortgage debt. Unless your other itemized deductions (real estate taxes, charitable donations, state income tax, etc.) are substantial, there is a good chance there will be no income tax benefits from your borrowing--- remember, the standard deduction on a joint return is now $10,700. You only benefit when your itemized deductions exceed that amount.

If you are young, the best course is to borrow more and trust that inflation will reduce the value of what you have to pay back. If you are in late career, say age 50, you might consider a large 15-year mortgage. The shorter term will reduce the interest rate slightly, and you will enjoy the maximum tax benefits in your peak earning years. When you retire, the loan will be paid off and your income requirement will be lower. You'll also have the benefit of being able to invest some of your equity. If the new house costs $150,000 and is financed with an 80 percent mortgage, you'll only need about $30,000 of your $90,000 home equity. So you'll have $60,000 to add to your retirement savings.

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Personal finance writer Scott Burns is syndicated by Universal Press. His twice weekly column appears in newspapers from Boston to Seattle. He is the Chief Investment Strategist for AssetBuilder, Inc. Readers can register at www.scottburns.com. Questions/comments can be posted directly. They can also be sent, without registration, to scott@scottburns.com. Questions of general interest will be answered in future columns and on this blog.

Click on the "Archive" navigation to see other columns. All comments are welcomed and appreciated.

Comments

 

ABModerator03 said:

Scott, Enjoyed your article in The Tennessean March 12, 2007. Please explain your arithmetic relative to $50,000 generating $6,375 per year for a good time fund invested @ 5%. Thanks, David

From Scott Burns: The figure is based on liquidating the fund over ten years. The calculation was done by figuring the payments on a 10 year loan at that rate. If you figure it as 120 monthly payments it comes to $6,364 a year. If you figure it as 10 payments, it's a bit more, $6,475.
March 12, 2007 2:45 PM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Your column this morning was entitled "Create 'good-time fund' from retirement money". There were two paragraphs which read: Suppose you are 65. Suppose also that you decide that you will take 10 percent of your retirement assets and spend them over the next 10 years. If those assets earn 5 percent, that means each $10,000 you put aside will give you a good-time allowance of $1,273 a year. If you have, say, $500,000 in investment assets and earmark 10 percent to the good-time fund, you'll have a $50,000 fund that will generate $6,365 a year.

Please explain your calculations to arrive at the "$1,273 a year", and the "$6,365 a year".

Thank you. Bill From Scott Burns: It's a 10 year fund, meaning that you plan to spend interest and principal during a 10 year period. The spendable amount is equal to the payments on a 10 year note at 5 percent.
March 15, 2007 7:26 AM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Dear Scott: RE: Your article on the 'good-time fund'.... I'm missing something. How does $50,000 at 5% earn $6365 a year? If I invest $50,000 in a 5% CD, I would expect something around $2500 per year, depending on how interested is calculated. $6350 is more like 12.7% of $50,000. Where do I sign up for such a return?

Thanks in advance for your reply. I read your articles regularly. Ralph From Scott Burns: The return is 5 percent but you are taking annual payments from an investment fund and drawing the fund down over a period of 10 years. You get the annual amount by figuring the payment on a 10 year loan, which includes principal and interest.
March 15, 2007 7:55 AM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Please let me know immediately where I can get $1273 a year on a $10,000 investment. Is that 5% compounded some funky way to 12.7%. I good really have some good times with that kind of return. Bruce From Scott Burns: There is no magic in this. The rate of return is stated in the column, 5 percent. The annual $1,273 is what you can take from $10,000 and have the payments last for 10 years. The idea is to front-load your lifetime consumption for the period when you are more likely to have the capacity to travel, etc.

Here's the language in the column:

So here's a suggestion. Suppose you are 65. Suppose also that you decide that you will take 10 percent of your retirement assets and spend them over the next 10 years. If those assets earn 5 percent, that means each $10,000 you put aside will give you a good-time allowance of $1,273 a year. If you have, say, $500,000 in investment assets and earmark 10 percent to the good-time fund, you'll have a $50,000 fund that will generate $6,365 a year.

Your spouse may ask, "But what about the future?"

Your answer is simple: "We're taking care of the next ten years first. If we're poor in 10 years, we won't do it again. If we've still got plenty of money in 10 years, we'll create another good-times fund."
March 15, 2007 10:03 AM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Enjoyed this article very much as we have been asking ourselves the same questions. We do have one question that would really like to know.

Where have you found the investment that returns $ 6,365 on a $50,000 investment annually? That would be wonderful or did we misread the article? A 12.5% return would be great.

Thanks for the info in advance.

Ron and Bobbie

From Scott Burns: The return is 5 percent. The money spent is a mixture of interest and principal, with the payments keyed to spending down the fund in 10 years. The idea is to front load the good times knowing that it may not be possible to spend the money later.
March 15, 2007 1:18 PM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Mr. Burns:

I'm having trouble figuring out your calculations for the "good time fund". 5 percent on $10,000 is only $500.00 per year. Just don't see where you get $1,273.00. $50,000 will only generate $2,500 per year based on 5 percent. If you are saying to also take 10 percent of the $50,000 along with the 5 percent interest it will earn then amount would be about $7,500 the first year. Maybe I'm thick headed but just can't figure it out.

Pls comment.

Tks, Bill From Scott Burns: You're not thick in the head. You just didn't understand that it is a ten year fund so part of the money being spent is principal. The amount to be spent is figured on the basis of a 10 year loan at 5 percent. The idea is to spend the fund and its income over the first ten years of retirement--- before health issues may limit activities.
March 15, 2007 1:34 PM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Mr Burns,

I read and re-read the column in the DMN and the your web site but have not been able to understand the figures you have. The $50,000 fund that generates $6,365 per year baffles me. Is there an error or is it that I cannot do simple math?

thanks, JS

From Scott Burns: Neither. The $6,365 a year is a combination of interest and principal--- it is the amount that you can take while drawing down a $50,000 fund over a period of 10 years. The idea is to front-load travel expenses in the early years of retirement, while health is still good.
March 15, 2007 6:26 PM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Scott, Could you show the math on the good times fund allowance calculation? Woody From Scott Burns: If you created a fund of $10,000 with the intention of spending it down over a period of 10 years while the principal earned 5 percent, you could take monthly payments of $106.07 or $1,272.79 a year. At the end of the period, the fund would be exhausted but you would have had a good time.
March 16, 2007 9:57 AM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Ditto Woody. It's driving me crazy.

Would also be good to calculate with other figures.

Durango
March 16, 2007 1:55 PM
 

ABModerator03 said:

I'm having problems with the math also. How can you get a return of $1273.00 a year on $10,000.00 @5%? From Scott Burns: The $1273 is not a return. It is the annual payment on a ten year loan that earns 5 percent. What I suggested was to create a fund and then draw it down, principal and interest, over a period of 10 years. At the end of the period, the fund would be exhausted.
March 17, 2007 4:21 PM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Hi - very good idea but I am having trouble with the math. $10,000 earning 5% is $500 not $1,273 a year and $50,000 at 5% is $2,500 not $6,365. Am I missing something? Thank you, Nancy From Scott Burns: The only thing you are missing is the idea that the good time fund is a liquidating fund. It disappears over a period of 10 years as you spend the principal and earned interest on good times. As a consequence, you figure the amount you can spend by calculating the payment on a 10 year loan at 5 percent. The total of the monthly payments for such a loan is $1,273 a year.

We can't create money out of nothing. But we can front-end load some of our retirement spending if we are concerned about current or future health. That's what the reader wanted to do.
March 18, 2007 11:06 AM
 

ABModerator03 said:

Scott: Hmmmmm. Your answer, philosophically, was great in today's column, but I don't follow the math calculations. $10k with a 5% annual return doesn't result in $1273, even compounded reasonably. Nor does $50k with a 5% annual return result in $6365. Have we got a typo in the article, or am I missing something? From Scott Burns: The return on investment is 5 percent but the fund is a wasting asset that is exhausted in 10 years. So the payment is calculated as though you were taking out a loan for 10 years. The $1,273 figure is the total of 12 payments on a 10 year loan of $10,000 at 5 percent. The larger figure is the annual sum of payments on a $55,000 loan.
March 18, 2007 4:50 PM
 

ABModerator03 said:

I think you have explained it very well. I just thought possibly if someone was trying to use a calculator or spreadsheet, it may be easier to follow. You have inputs of $10,000, 10 years, 5% and calculate the payment. In a spreadsheet this might be '=pmt(10000,10,.05)'. I also liked the second question. Of course it depends on the individual whether they prefer to live debt free or attempt to maximize their return by taking a little risk. Generally, they appear to be able to maintain a positive net worth even if they lose a job, and can at that point chose to liquidate some investments to make the mortgage payments on the new home.
March 21, 2007 9:58 AM

About scottb

Scott Burns has covered the changing world of personal finance and investments for nearly 40 years. Today, he ranks as one of the five most widely read personal finance writers in the country. Scott began his career as a newspaper columnist at the Boston Herald in 1977 where he was also the financial editor. Nationally syndicated in 1981 and now distributed by Universal Press, the column appears in newspapers from Boston to Seattle. In 1985 he joined the staff of the Dallas Morning News where his column quickly became one of the most widely read features in the paper. He left the Dallas Morning News in 2006 to become one of the founders of AssetBuilder and its Chief Investment Strategist. Burns is a graduate of Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1962). He has written four books, including "The Coming Generational Storm" (MIT Press, 2004) coauthored with economist Laurence J. Kotlikoff. His fourth book, also coauthored with Kotlikoff, will be published this spring by Simon & Schuster. "Spend Til' the End" uses consumption smoothing to demonstrate the errors of conventional financial planning. His business experience includes working as a staffer for a major consulting company and service as a director and audit chairman of a NASDAQ listed manufacturing company. He and his wife divide their time between Dallas and Santa Fe, New Mexico.
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